Most Canadian provinces now have or are planning to implement a vaccine passport. But who will have to ask for those passports? Check their authenticity? Deny service to those who refuse to show one? It'll be the same people who have already spent the pandemic bearing the brunt of anger over public health restrictions: Frontline service and hospitality industry workers who didn't sign up to enforce health regulations. Is there a way to both protect necessary measures like the passports, but give these workers the help and support they need to deal with the inevitable garbage that will come their way?GUEST: John Sinopoli, restaurateur, co-founder of savehospitality.ca
Most Canadian provinces now have or are planning to implement a vaccine passport. But who will have to ask for those passports? Check their authenticity? Deny service to those who refuse to show one?
It'll be the same people who have already spent the pandemic bearing the brunt of anger over public health restrictions: Frontline service and hospitality industry workers who didn't sign up to enforce health regulations. Is there a way to both protect necessary measures like the passports, but give these workers the help and support they need to deal with the inevitable garbage that will come their way?
GUEST: John Sinopoli, restaurateur, co-founder of savehospitality.ca
Jordan Few businesses have been hit harder by this pandemic than restaurants. While everything from costs to profit margins to customers to seating and staffing have suffered. There's one part of the industry that suffered more than any other. That is, the poor folks who have been dealing with this crap for a year and a half now.
News Clip A New Westminster shop owner is visibly shaken after she says anti-mask protesters ambushed her store and refused to leave.
Anti-Masker Clips You are required by law to accommodate us...
There he is, walking away with all my stuff, there he goes, because I'm not a f******* sheep.
Jordan It was tough enough when a simple rule of no mask, no service was in effect. But over the past several weeks, provinces across the country have introduced vaccination passports, and you can guess who has to ask diners for these passports, who has to try to make sure they're genuine and who has to refuse service to those who won't provide them. Yes, it's the same people.
Restaurateur testimonials It's not fun for our staff to be screamed at and called Nazis...
...the comments that were coming at us were significant enough that we didn't feel confident or safe in opening the doors and having our staff having to deal with this backlash...
...and he threatened to come back and fill up his truck with bricks and destroy the place.
Jordan By now, we have more than enough proof that any new measures that need to be enforced in the community are going to fall unfairly upon lower income workers who serve the customer directly. These are mostly people who are already worried for their safety. Does it have to be this way? Could these documents be made easier to access? To verify? Could governments provide any measures to protect or help the people tasked with enforcing them? Or like so much of this pandemic, is this another burden on people who are already dealing with several?
I'm Jordan Heath-Rawlings. This is The Big Story. John Sinopoli is a partner and executive chef at the Ascari Hospitality Group. He is also a co founder of Save Hospitality Canada. Hello, John.
John Hello, Jordan. Thank you for having me.
Jordan You're most welcome. Why don't you start with, because we've checked in on you a few times during this pandemic and you're speaking to us from one of your kitchens now, before vaccine passports came on the menu so to speak, tell me about the toll this pandemic has taken on front of house staff in restaurants in general.
John Yeah, it has been extremely challenging, and I think that the toll shows itself not only in the disposition of the teams and the frustration and the fatigue, but also in the difficulty in finding staff both front of house and back of house at the moment. We believe a lot of that is due to the mental health toll that the pandemic has put on people. And front of house teams, especially because of all the new extra risks, and with all the behavioral issues we find with certain customers.
And, you know, the challenge of the screening, the responsibility of people's health and their health status, things that people did not get in the hospitality business to ask of their customers. And I think it's definitely taking a huge toll. It shows in the staff shortage as well as the number of mental health days our team are taking, as well as the amount of fatigue and stress our teams are under. And as owners and managers, we need to react to that. And we need to be understanding of that and do our best to create a work environment that mitigates that risk for them.
Jordan Tell me about some of those so-called 'behavioral issues'. I think everybody's seen a few viral videos. What have you guys had to deal with at some of your shops?
John We've been pretty fortunate in that we haven't had any violence or anything like that, but we definitely have people who are upset, and it ranges, anything from someone trying to scoop the rules. 'I've had one shot here's my proof of one shot, just let me in, I'm a regular, come on.' And we're like, 'Sorry, we can't do that.' And even before the vaccine passport, it was just masking, like reminding people, 'hey, you can't walk to the bathroom without your mask on.' Just the kind of policing that you have to do with everyday people, and all the way to people who just refuse to put on a mask to come inside to go to the bathroom. And we're like, 'well, then you just can't come in.' You can't walk to your table on the patio without your mask on. That's the law, that's the rule. We don't make it, but we're obligated to enforce it, and the customer won't get fined if we're found to be breaking the rules, we get fined. So that's part of the challenge of the situation as well.
Jordan Have you guys had, or has the industry as a whole, I guess, had any support or help from the government in terms of enforcing these policies? I think anybody listening, regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, doesn't think it's fair for a host or hostess to try to turn somebody away who's getting angry and possibly violent. That's a job for the police, or at least for security.
John Yes, we've had to hire security at one of our locations during the pandemic, you know, not just because of COVID, but definitely the need is enhanced because of COVID. And that's not every night. That's like Friday, Saturday night in a busy night life area of the city where we would probably have security around just to make sure. But their job is definitely busier now, helping our team enforce the protocols and enforce the rules. To answer the question, no, the government has given zero help in enforcement of any of these rules. They have not provided resources. They have not provided any financial aid at all.
And I would imagine that if you are a bigger place in a busier part of a downtown core in Canada, the staffing costs are serious. We spend much more money on labor now because of COVID and because of these rules than we would have. Having said that, we welcome the rules of course. We welcome the ability to ensure the safety of both our team and the rest of our guests. We're not interested in people behaving dangerously outside the restaurants, coming in and bringing that risk into our space. So we like the rules a lot. It would be great if we had some assistance enforcing them. And I heard from police services in different cities, they say they've been given zero budget to deal with this. So if they get a call from people who are having an incident at their establishment because of customers or potential customers misbehaving, that kind of enforcement has not been considered into their budget or coverage. So that's a challenge in itself as well.
Jordan So given all that as kind of the lay of the land, I want to ask you when you heard probably a few weeks ago now that Ontario was going to implement a vaccine passport, what instantly went through your head, I imagine on one hand, 'good, It's going to be safe', on another, 'Oh, my God, this is going to be us.'
John I'd say if I speak for our company, we were much more welcoming. We're very welcoming of it. And then you think, okay, our managers have to figure out 'what are we going to do with the door?' And sure enough, like on Saturday night at the larger of our three places, it created a crunch because we just couldn't get people seated fast enough because of all of the screening. Hardly anyone had it perfectly ready on their phone, there was always one person in the party saying 'I have to find it.' One person had to call her mom for her health card number so she could, like, get it in the app or get online and download the thing. And like, people were not prepared. And that causes a huge, huge crunch at the door, which caused a huge crunch in our normal flow of reservations and how the night is supposed to take place.
So it has definitely created challenges where we need a team at the front door to manage it, and then it has a knock on effect to the rest of service. And of course, the people who make these policies never consider the operational challenges of any business, but ours, especially, is particularly vulnerable to added time and labor.
Jordan In your role with Save Hospitality, what have you heard in terms of the first week of this being the policy? I'm glad to hear you haven't had any real problems at your shops, but what about just in general, how smooth has the role out been, how prepared have restaurants been to not only screen but also enforce these policies?
John Yeah, I haven't heard much. To be honest, I think every one is just knee deep in their Ops and it's really new. We're talking about three to four days. So I think that after a week or two, people will begin to kind of take stock. It's hard to judge a policy and its effectiveness on the first three days, but I think in a couple of weeks we'll have a better snapshot of how people have adjusted, how restaurant ops created systems to smooth things out.
And I think obviously, once the app is released, it creates a much smoother system of protocols at the front door, where it's much quicker. If you don't have it on the app, you're just not getting in. We don't have to accept any letters. It's either green or it's not green, you know what I mean? And so for us, we look forward to that.
Jordan In terms of planning ahead of time. And this is the reason that we wanted to talk to somebody who actually oversees restaurants. Like, what do you guys have to figure out in order to get this system in place? I can't imagine the average server or hostess knowing how to spot a real one from a fake one or knowing what questions to ask, or how to turn people away properly if they don't have it. Like what's that on the ground preparation been like from, I guess, your managers to their staff?
Jordan It's a lot of work that happens in addition to the tons of work our managers already have to do every day. And we have to prepare a script for the team at the front door. We've prepared scripts for all of our communications before these customers even come to our door. So a reservation is on the phone, our manager is on the phone, our reservation confirmation language that happens via email or text. All of these things had to be adjusted. That is no small nut to crack, that's a big web of communications that needs to now incorporate yet another message in addition to if you're late or if your party has shrunk in size or whatever.
Now it's like, oh, you also need to be double vaccinated to come inside. You need to show this proof, we only accept XYZ. The more you communicate the expectation to the customer, obviously, the smoother your operation would be. But, of course, it's not fool proof. And not to mention, just like you said, our hosts now have to be familiar with a number of pages of government regulation and rules that if we are caught not following them, we're subject to huge fines. That, in my opinion, is not something that someone working in the front of a restaurant should ever have to deal with. Frankly, it's a level of responsibility that's beyond their pay grade. And I think that the challenge now is that, frankly, lots of people want to get paid more for doing what before was a great entry level job into the hospitality industry.
Jordan What could the government and I'm speaking of Ontario here, because that's where your restaurants are, but it applies to any provincial government. What could they have done to make this process smoother? And I'm thinking specifically here, not necessarily for people who are concerned about the bottom line of their restaurants, but for the people on the front lines of this.
John Well, they could have definitely messaged the fact that this vaccine requirement for going indoors is a positive thing and not a negative thing. And the way the Ford government message it was, 'we don't want to do this. We don't want to have to do this. This is not something we ever wanted to do.' Which gives a whole bunch of people in society who may be aligned with that kind of negative thinking towards vaccines and or maybe not vaccines, but towards mandates in general, more ammunition to be like, 'this is not the right approach.'
Whereas if they started from the beginning on a positive note and explained the benefits of such policies and how by doing this, you're helping society at large and keeping the restaurant staff safe. I don't think Ford ever mentioned the safety of hospitality staff or anyone who is subject to this mandate, all these businesses. Never mentioned that as even a priority, it was always about people's personal choice. For us, people's personal choices is completely usurped by the health and safety of our team. And we are not public facilities, we are a private business. We should have every right to refuse service for people who don't fall under the health and safety practices we set as our standard. Now, having said that, the government has to set that standard province wide or nobody would be able to effectively enforce it. However, you know, the messaging was always reluctant, and that was a huge challenge.
And then, of course, more robust education of the public in terms of the benefits of vaccines and it's not just a necessary evil. It is actually a good health public policy initiative that keeps everybody safe, our grandparents, our children, our neighbors, everybody. And for us, in our work environment, the last thing I want to do is put one of our hard working team members at risk because somebody at work or some customer who practices risky health and safety outside brings a risk into the workplace. That's the last thing we want to do.
Jordan I do want to ask you about something you touched on earlier, and it's something I think we may have spoken about in the past. Certainly, we spoke to Corey Mintz about it a little while ago, which is just, hiring and staff retention in the face of all these new regulations. How are you doing with that? How is the industry as a whole doing with that? And will this fundamentally change the business model.
Jordan I don't have the answer to whether there's a fundamental change to the business model. I think that the business model was gradually changing pre pandemic and the pandemic hit the gas on it a little bit in terms of the labor burden. And I've listened to that episode with Corey. I know Corey well, we've discussed this issue together many times. It doesn't help. We were already in a situation pre-pandemic where we were having to change the way we thought about compensation and work environment, hours and all of those things. And that's a great thing for our industry.
I think that though these regulations, the added risk, like if you wanted to get into the industry and you want to become a professional in hospitality, but the entry level position was a host at a busy restaurant in this environment. Is that a position you'd apply for? I mean, I hope people still think that it's a great way to get your start, but at the same time, there might be something else that's way less stressful.
So, yes, all these extra regulations and requirements, present extra challenges for sure to hiring and training and keeping and retaining good people who have potential futures in our industry. I think that we are doing our best to continue to professionalize the industry so that people see that career path before they come in. And it's not just a job for for making good tips and having evening hours as a student. This is an industry that we hope people see as a great opportunity to do something that involves a completely different skill-set than your typical office job, and that has a professional path to management and growth.
Jordan Just in like a philosophical sense. One of the reasons that this problem is interesting to me is that people get into hospitality, especially the front of house parts of the business to be warm and welcoming and accepting. And there's that mantra of 'the customer is always right, how can I make sure people are having an awesome time?' And that tends to be the personality of people that are drawn to this work. The front line health regulation stuff almost seems to me like it's the opposite of that that's falling on them.
John I think you nailed it. I think that for us, the first thing we want people to see is a smile when they come into our place. So that's already gone because of masks. There's already a ton of communication issues we're finding at tables because people can't see each others faces. You can't crack a joke, you can't lighten things up, you can't create a fun atmosphere. I've always told my team, we're in the good times business. That's why you come into this world because you love helping people have a good time. They leave the house excited to go for a night out, and we're there to be the architects of that experience. All of these regulations and health code restrictions and spacing, it really creates an incredible challenge to achieving that goal, especially when the first thing they see is a bureaucratic screening process, a mask, an invasion of like, 'okay, do you have this? You have this?'
The customer feels like they're applying for a job. It's insane. It's the opposite of, 'welcome, thank you for coming, we are here for you, sit down and relax.' Like there's now an extra bridge we have to cross before we can get to that point. So I think you make an excellent point that this flies in the face of what true hospitality is. And that's a challenge for our teams 100%.
Jordan How do you cross that bridge from having them feel like a burden, some job application part of a night, and get people over to the other side where they feel positive about it, and they're willing to cheerfully go through it in order to go on with their meal, you know?
John Yeah. I think technology plays a huge role in that. I think as soon as we get out of this where we have to pull up a picture on their phone or pull out a piece of paper from their bag or their pocket. I think that just having the app open up, boom, it's right there, here you go, thank you very much. To make it as quick and seamless as possible, but also as fool proof because I don't want the quick and seamless to jeopardize the robustness of what's necessary in terms of the protocol. So I think that making it fast, making it easy for people to execute, like, in a timely manner, and making it basically like asking someone for their name for the reservation. It should be just as quick at the door. And so for me, the technology will play a huge role in that.
Jordan Final question then: for diners who are vaccinated, who have been hopefully looking forward to these passports and the regulations that come with them as the return to normal, what would you ask of them? How can they help, not necessarily help your business, but how can they help the people that are caught in the middle between regulations and their jobs?
John Yeah, that's a great question. I think that leads into a much bigger idea that I've been having conversations with people in the industry, partners in the industry about, is that I think what's lost in this conversation about what restaurants need to become, how they're evolving, the challenges we're overcoming in terms of the work environment we provide, the way people are paid, the expectations of our staff, is that customers need to participate in this ecosystem. Yes, they are the customers. They bring the money, they're the people feeding us. And it's not about having less respect for the customer. It's about recognizing that customers play a part in this and that they should patronize places that they know and respect, and places that treat your employees properly. And they should be treating our employees like human beings, like people who go to work and are trying to pay their bills and are there because they love taking care of people.
And if people come with that approach and that attitude, that they want to be partners in their own good time, that they want to come in with the right mindset, and it's not just transactional. I think that goes a long way, and I think that where people spend their money and how they spend it and then how they treat people while they spend their money is super important. And I think that just because you're there spending money and tipping doesn't give you the right to speak abusively or be dismissive or be anything that's not perfectly respectful and kind to our team. And having said that, we're there for you, that's why we come to work every day. We want to show you a good time, just open that door enough for us to be able to do it. And I think that there has to be a grander discussion of customer participation, in the new world that's going to become hospitality over the coming years. And I think that the expectation in North America of like, the customer is always right, and I can say whatever I want to the server and I can do whatever I want and just I'm paying, and that's all that matters. I think that that has to be reassessed just like practices of abuse of employees and pay and bad working conditions have.
Jordan I hope the next time we talk to you is when we're finally all through this and you can drop those health protocols. Thanks again.
John That would be wonderful. Thanks Jordan, a pleasure.
Jordan John Sinopoli from the Ascari Hospitality Group and Save Hospitality Canada.
That was the Big Story to hear more from us, including the previous times we've had John as a guest, you can head to thebigstorypodcast.ca. You can talk to us on Twitter at @TheBigStoryFPN. You can always write us an email at thebigstorypodcast@rci.rogers.com [click here!]. If you're already in a podcast player listening to us, that's great. You can subscribe or follow or like or whatever it is right there. If you're not and you're on our website, there are buttons that will take you to whichever podcast player you prefer. And of course, if you don't want to mess with your podcast player, you can just ask your favourite smart speaker to 'play the Big Story Podcast.'
Thanks for listening. I'm Jordan Heath-Rawlings. We'll talk tomorrow.